Agnes Roter Interviews Mike Caldwell on Full Circle Empathy: From Paramedic to Marketing Medic

In this episode, Agnes Roter, VP of Marketing and Ecommerce at The Source, we flip the script a bit, and instead of me interviewing Agnes, Agnes interviews me! This all came about after she read my book, Empathic Marketing and sent me an email with a dozen follow up questions.

The interview starts with Agnes asking me some more personal questions about how I made the transition from paramedic to marketer. She had questions about the letters after my name, some of the people I've met, and the history of all the animals we share our home with.

We then move onto some marketing talk. We delve into the book's opening story, where a young girl named Katie loses her arm in an accident. I explain how I used empathic marketing principles to connect with Katie during her recovery and how these same principles can be applied in marketing. We talk about the challenges of being truly empathetic in our field and the power of storytelling. I outline the five steps of empathic marketing and touch on the difficulty of crafting a compelling hook. We wrap up the conversation by discussing my natural curiosity and what Agnes perceives as a strong work ethic.

Takeaways:

• My journey from being a paramedic to diving into the world of marketing
• Why empathy is crucial in marketing and truly understanding the end user
• The surprising connections and stories I've discovered through my podcast
• My love for animals and a sneak peek into my upcoming book about training my mischievous dog, Biko
• Empathic marketing is all about seeing things from the customer's perspective and addressing their needs and pains before promoting any products or services
• Storytelling in marketing is powerful because it creates a bond with the audience, making the message more relatable
• The five steps of empathic marketing: understanding the audience, crafting a compelling hook, identifying a unique differentiator, developing an irresistible offer, and addressing the audience's false limiting beliefs
• Being empathetic in marketing can be tough, especially with the lack of empathy in society and the focus on short-term results
• Curiosity and a strong work ethic are essential traits for success in marketing and business
• AI and technology should enhance customer-centric marketing strategies, not replace the human connection and empathy

Eager to harness the power of Empathic Marketing to propel your business growth? Get your hands on my #1 Amazon Best Selling book, 'Empathic Marketing,' or book a '30-Minute Gap Analysis' session directly from my website: www.becausebusinessispersonal.com.

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Transcript

 Hey everyone, welcome back to a very special edition of Because Business is Personal. I've got an awesome guest with me today. Her name is Agnes Roter. She's the VP of Marketing and E -commerce for The Source. Now, just a little bit of backstory. I met Agnes a couple of weeks ago. We were both keynote presenters at the Savant E -commerce event in Toronto. We hit it off. We've got a lot of things in common.

Mike (00:43)
And I gave her a copy of my book, Empathic Marketing. Well, she read my book over the weekend. That following Monday, she sent me an email with like 12 questions, follow up questions about my book. And I was like, Agnes, I can't answer all these questions in an email, but you got me thinking. You know, if you have these questions about my book and about me and all this other stuff, maybe my other readers do as well. So would you be interested in flipping the script for me?

And instead of me interviewing you, would you be interested in interviewing me so I can answer all your questions and provide answers for anybody else who has read my book and is still curious? Did I miss anything, Agnes?

Agnes Roter (01:25)
No, and so here we are at the end of this, maybe at the beginning of the story, really. That's just the background so we can tease our listeners. Yeah, I did read your book. It was a very quick read. I think it really helps when you meet someone and kind of see the behind the scenes. So I have, yes, lots of questions. And I'll tell you.

Mike (01:35)
There you go.

Agnes Roter (01:51)
I feel I was reflecting ahead of our meeting today or this chat. I think you're making my childhood dreams come to life. Because when I was a kid, way, way, way, way many years ago, way back when, I always thought it was so cool to be a journalist. Nothing came of it. Nothing came of it. So look, this is it. That's right. So here we are. This is my inaugural.

Mike (02:07)
I saw that. That's your intro. That's your intro to your LinkedIn. Yeah.

Okay, so the way I start every podcast interview is because business is personal. I usually ask my guests, and you are my guest still, to share something personal about themselves that most people wouldn't know or wouldn't expect. So maybe you could give me something new or maybe just expand on that journalist thing a little bit.

Agnes Roter (02:29)
There you go.

Yeah, I don't know where it came from. You know, I quite enjoy reading and writing. I think when I was picturing that I'll be a journalist as a kid or teenager, that's probably what I was thinking. Of course, we know there's so much more that goes into that kind of a vocation and you have to be really, really curious to write about people, problems, etc. So I hope I aspire to this curiosity, but I feel like that's a big threshold to meet, you know, to be really good in something.

something like that. So we'll see how this goes. You can rate me at the end and say, yeah, I think that may have worked or man, stick to your knittings and marketing. That's right. That's right. But it was really fun.

Mike (03:07)
Okay, here you go, your first...

Your first journalist assignment. Here we go.

Agnes Roter (03:23)
To meet you, Mike, you have a lot of stage presence. I know I wasn't there for day two, but even in day one, as we were talking in the round table that you hosted, et cetera, it was very, very clear you have lots of thoughts on marketing and just have had a really interesting life. So yes, I have tons of questions, but.

The first, maybe most obvious question as I think about people picking up your book and the title and your intro, you're being very transparent that you started in a very different life. So you were a paramedic before, which I find fascinating. How does one go from being a paramedic, you're saving lives. I think I've read you trained in Colorado and now you're living, you would say in the backwoods of Western

Quebec, I understood on the farm. So like very different, just explain, very different starting point to where you are right now.

Mike (04:25)
All right. So, so I'm Canadian, but I was working as a paramedic partner in Hamilton, Ontario, back in the early nineties. And what a paramedic partner. So, Hamilton had a, a paramedic pilot program for real paramedics and I wanted to be a paramedic, but it was just a pilot program. Real paramedics probably weren't ever going to happen. So I said, you know what, screw it. I'm going to go to Colorado. I got accepted by, by the Swedish medical center and.

Colorado to do my training there. And I told my employer Fleetwood Ambulance in Hamilton, they don't exist anymore. But I told them that I'm going to Colorado to my paramedic training like, yeah, fill your boots, but we're not going to recognize your training when you come back. So I don't like it's a waste of time. So like, okay, cool. I'm gonna go anyway. So I went anyway. And then I ended up meeting a girl in my class who lived at the Coffman mountain ski resort. And she was apparently

paramedic training too. And we hit it off. And so he decided to start dating. And when we did that, I met the Colorado, sorry, the Coffman fire department and the chief asked me if I would be interested in being their medical officer firefighter medical officer when I graduated from the program, because they wanted to upgrade from a basic life support system to an advanced life support. Anyway, so that's what I did. So I graduated school, I got hired as the medical officer for the Coffman fire department. So I was a full firefighter.

and the medical officer. And the way our base worked, we worked 24 hour shifts. And so that meant I only worked like two, maybe three days a week, right? 48 or 72 hours a week, only two or three days, which meant I had a lot of time off. It was also a slow department. And so I was like, what am I going to do with all my spare free time? So I ended up getting my master's degree because, because the, the, this isn't the early 90s. So we didn't all have computers, but my, the,

station had a computer so I could do work at I could do my master's degree while I was at work anyway so I was able to get my master's degree while I was there and yeah so that's so that's how I became a firefighter paramedic and got my master's degree I stayed out west for five years and then I just I was just called back to Canada it's like I just I missed the freshwater I just missed being Canadian so I ended up coming back to Canada where I was hired to launch

the new air ambulance program in Ontario. So I opened four helicopter bases, one in London, Kenora, Moosonee and Ottawa. And then once those bases were open, I managed the Ottawa base. Okay. So again, have lots of free time. When I was in Colorado, part of my master's degree, I worked with Colorado outward bound doing experiential education, that sort of stuff. So in the late nineties, back in Ontario, I said, I am going to...

create a team building service for all the high tech companies in Ottawa. Cause Nortel was huge, MyTel was huge, JDS Uniphase, all these huge companies doing, spending all this money on team building. So that was, that was my side hustle. As a paramedic by day, side hustling, team builder. Yeah. Side hustling, team builder by night. Right. And so, but then, while I was doing the side hustle team building thing, I had a 35 foot cliff on my property.

Agnes Roter (07:38)
I'm sensing a theme. I'm sensing a theme.

Mike (07:52)
which I fell off. So I fell off the cliff. I broke my arm. I broke my leg. I broke my back. So I wasn't able to... What's that?

Agnes Roter (07:55)
Eek.

the cliff. How do you, you can't just leave us with, there was a cliff, how do you get to be on the cliff?

Mike (08:05)
So I was teaching, so part, I was teaching corporate team building, but I don't know if you know what happened in the late nineties, Nortel disappeared from Ottawa, JDS disappeared from Ottawa, Mitel disappeared for Ottawa. All my potential clients disappeared. That was in the high sec, high tech sector crashed. Right. So I had a pivot and so I have all these skills and adventure race training. So I was teaching people how to do things like rock, cliff repelling.

So setting up a repel for a client, made some mistakes, fell off the cliff, 35 feet, broke my arm, leg, back, knocked myself unconscious. My dog, Fred, woke me up. We hiked out. It was only about half a kilometer out. So I hiked out, woke my wife up who was in the cabin. Anyway, so that's what happened there. But I couldn't be a paramedic. So I said, you know what? I don't want to be a paramedic anymore. I'm going to...

go full on with my corporate team building stuff. I'm gonna do all that and just focus 100%. And so that's what I did. but how did I become a marketer? Sorry, I kinda jumped the gun.

Agnes Roter (09:15)
Listen, this is, I am sensing a few themes here. And what am I going to do with my spare time? It's a pretty big theme here. So I think it will take us down the path on at what point spare time became you're a marketer and, you know, consultant and work with lots of different clients and businesses.

Mike (09:19)
you

Yeah, so sometimes I feel like people aren't going to believe my story because I sent you a picture yesterday, the day before me and an Ironman triathlon. So I was also racing Ironman triathlons at the time, which is 2 .4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, and then a full 26 mile run. So I'm doing Ironmans at the same time. And I did one race, I did okay, but I wanted to do better. And one of the guys I went to high school with became one of Canada's top

Agnes Roter (09:45)
Yes.

Mike (10:05)
triathlon coaches. His name is Steve Bentley. So I reached out to Steve like, Hey, Steve, remember me? We were in the outdoor ed programmer together. And he's like, Hey, I remember you. I'm like, Yeah, I see your triathlon coach. Could you give me some tips? Like, he's like, your training is fine. You need to improve your nutrition. I was like, Okay, how do I do that? And I didn't I didn't I didn't know anything about multi level marketing or network marketing. I knew nothing about any hadn't hadn't even heard those terms like you should use a product called isogenics. It has all this protein and nutrition. I'm like, Okay, if that's what it

And so so I bought this these packages from him. I lost like 30 pounds. I increased all my race times like 20 25%. And because I was doing so good, because I look so good. All my all my fellow competitors like how'd you do that? I'm like, I use this project called isogenics like, can we get some? And Steve's like, Yeah.

Agnes Roter (10:53)
So that's where you got the taste, the taste of.

Mike (10:55)
Yeah, it seems like, you can sell this stuff. I'm like, really? And so I became a crystal executive with isogenics, which is one of their highest. Yeah, and so I'm doing I'm making like 1500 $2 ,000 a month, which isn't huge money, but I didn't do anything to generate. It's just was just coming to me. I was like, wow, I like this not working and still getting paid. Let's do more of this. So I, you know, I've exhausted my warm circle.

Agnes Roter (11:06)
smokes.

Mike (11:26)
And so I'm like, how can I sell this product to people I don't know? So that's why I needed to learn about marketing. And so I signed up with Russell Brunson. There's a huge long story behind that, but Russell Brunson from ClickFunnels, I got into his inner circle and we did some work together and he was helped me out. And the stuff I was doing wasn't really working with the funnels, with his website funnels. They weren't working at all, but I was responsible for doing all the Facebook advertising and his Facebook guy went to Russell and I've got Russell on

on video saying this. My Facebook guy came into my office and said, Mike is better at Facebook ads than I am.

Agnes Roter (12:02)
Well, that's a great endorsement.

Mike (12:04)
It is like saying I have Russell on video saying that and so Russell started referring me to other clients and I was able to get them way better results than I was able to get for myself. And so that in short story long is how I became a marketer and the reason so one of my best clients was a boot camp gym in Colorado. No, boot camp gym in California and Chino Hills and what they were doing before I started work with them. They're trying to do what everybody else was doing their

copying LA fitness, they're copying Gold's gym. But there is a small little boot camp gym. And they were trying to approach the 20 somethings who wanted the beach bod. But when I went to their gym, there was no 20 somethings in there. It was all the 20 somethings moms that were in there, right? Exactly. It was people like us and they didn't have six packs, they didn't want six packs, they just wanted to be healthy. They just wanted to, you know, have energy for their kids.

And so once I took the time to understand their audience have empathy for their actual clientele and created ads with that sort of messaging, we were able to get a 36 to one return on ad spend. And so these two brothers that were afraid about losing the gym entirely ended up, they're both working full -time jobs to support the gym. Within nine months, they both quit their jobs to work the gym full -time. And that comes back to the empathy, like say, because I just took the time to,

go into their gym, like I say, see the 20 -somethings moms and say, hey, do you want a six pack? They're like, no. I'm 50 years old. I'm never gonna have a six pack. I'm like, well then what are you doing here? And they told me what they were doing there. I'm like, And I asked the next person, they were there for the same reason. The other person's there for the same reason. So I started creating ads that spoke to those reasons, not to the six packs, and like say 36 to one return on ad spend.

Agnes Roter (13:57)
when nothing beats knowing your customer really well. But that must have been quite addictive. Those are crazy wild results that I think any marketer would say. You know, that's an aspiration. I don't know if that's regular reality for marketers.

Mike (14:00)
Yeah.

In full transparency, I've never done that again. Like, yeah, I, yeah, like I'm super happy with it. And this is what a lot of online marketers in the niche that I'm working with now, like two to one is awesome. Like two to one, there's nothing wrong with two to one. Like if I give you a dollar, you give me $2 back. I'm just going to be throwing ones at you all day long, right? There's nothing wrong with two to one, but of course, 36 is better, but that's something I claim I can do. Yeah.

Agnes Roter (14:25)
Okay.

That must have hooked you in, right? That must have been pretty exhilarating to say, hold on, and one of my first goes at it, here's what I'm achieving.

Mike (14:46)
Yeah, yeah.

Agnes Roter (14:51)
I know you and I talked about this before. I'm usually really fascinated by how people get to figure out what makes them tick. And I'm noticing a theme here, as I said, is Mike does one thing, then says, have some spare time. What else can I attempt or what else can I try my hand at? Would you say that's your secret sauce is you're you're learning things really quickly. You're you're a risk taker and you can try anything. It sounds like you tried but pretty impressive pivots.

in your life so far.

Mike (15:23)
Yeah, I'm pretty big on the ready fire aim approach to life. Right. It's like, I don't, so I don't know if you're going to ask about my house. So we, I, I sold, so when I decided not to be a paramedic anymore and I was going to go full in on the team building, I needed a, I was going to do onsite team building. So I needed a property for that. So I sold my house, I sold my cottage and I bought a, six, excuse me.

Agnes Roter (15:28)
Ha ha ha.

Mike (15:50)
I bought a 6 ,000 square foot abandoned sawmill, 164 acres. And I'm like, I'm going to turn this into my house and business venue. I'm a firefighter paramedic by training. I don't know how to do drywall, plumbing, electrical. I don't know anything about anything. I don't know anything about finance. So I sold my house, sold my college. So I was able to buy this property. And then I thought I'd get like a, a construction loan or a mortgage to finance it. Again, I don't know anything. And this is the ready, fire aim approach.

When I went to the banks like, hey, I've got this shed. Could you give me $200 ,000 to turn into a house? And they're like, no, no. I was like, well, can I get a construction loan? Like a construction loan starts with a architect and a blueprint. That's where we start. We don't start with like a three walled sawmill. That's not how it's done, right? We'll give you money to hire the architect and do the blueprint. And then we'll give you money to do the foundation.

then we'll give you money to do the walls. Like it goes like this, we're just not gonna like throw money at you willy -nilly. It's like, okay. So can I get a mortgage? Like on what? You don't have a house. Like, yeah.

Agnes Roter (17:01)
But yet here you are. Here you are. But don't you find that Hattu has this ever this instinct ever misled you because it's you know, most people will do the opposite because they will be incredibly risk averse and very thoughtful and planful. Not that your approach isn't thoughtful and planful, but it starts on the other side of the equation.

Mike (17:27)
Yeah, I don't recommend doing things the way I do. I strongly discourage people from taking this approach. But the model that I've had since my first book, which I've got to send you a copy of called Beard Toward Success, my motto there is if it can be done, it can be done by me. Meaning if somebody else has done it, then I can too. And it's not me. It's like you can't do any like if it's been done. If we want it bad enough, we can all make it happen. Right? You just have to figure it out.

And it's even easier now. Like when I built this house, the internet wasn't really a thing that the internet was a thing, but you couldn't just use like now, like the other day I was having trouble with, my disc break on my mountain bike. It's like, no, how do I get this unstuck? And I was going to go to the thing and Monique's like, just YouTube it. I'm like, yeah, YouTube 10 minutes later, my disc break was fixed. Right. So anyways, yeah, I'm just, I'm not a big plan, a fan of plan B. I'm like, I see something. I want something. I go for something.

and then let's figure out how to make it happen.

Agnes Roter (18:30)
That's a very cool skill.

Mike (18:31)
But it can, it's worked out for me. But like I said, I don't encourage it. I've had some sleepless nights.

Agnes Roter (18:38)
It hasn't backfired yet though so...

Mike (18:42)
It hasn't backfired, but it hasn't been easy either.

Agnes Roter (18:45)
Can I ask you one thing about going back to your paramedic days? You mentioned you were working 24 -hour shifts. Did you find that hard?

Mike (18:56)
That's one of the reasons. So there's a few reasons why I left the paramedic because one, I loved being a paramedic. I love, I was on a helicopter, which meant I w I had all the coolest tools, which I had all the coolest skills. Like, and I was the chief paramedic. Like I was arguably the top paramedic in Canada. Like it was, it was pretty cool, but the two things I didn't like is because I was the boss. I suck at politics. I am not good at politics and there was just so many politics involved. like just, I had to deal with my base hospital.

And then I had to deal with my employer because the base hospital worked, hired the employer to employ me. And then I had to work with the hospitals that we served and they are all had different agendas. And I was the guy stuck in the middle. And when I pleased one, one entity, then I pissed off the other entity and it was just, it was too much. Then I had a staff and the staff were all the best of the best. So they were all prima donnas. And, it was just tough. I didn't like any of that. And then the other thing was nights.

my body shuts down at 10 p 10 p I go to bed, well actually I go to bed at 9 p because after 10 p it's like why would anybody be up at 10 .01 p that's just crazy. And yeah so when I would get a call even in my 20s like two in the morning my body would just ache. And since I'm not a night person I am a day person so a shift would end at 7 a go home whatever do stuff be in bed by 9 a by 10 a I'm awake.

Like it's 10 a I'm awake and I'm like, no, I can't. I gotta go to work tonight. I can't survive a one hour sleep, but I couldn't go back to sleep. So yeah, I would have greatly shortened my life had I had I stayed as a paramedic just from the stress of working nights.

Agnes Roter (20:40)
I always think of that, you know, in the corporate world, we say nine to five, of course, you never really always think about work to some degree, but it's certainly not a 24 hours operation or as nurses and doctors do 12 hour shifts, it's got to be really hard.

Mike (20:56)
Yeah, well, there's studies done like just on shift workers at factories, like even if you're just working in a factory, night shift, night shift, people who work night shifts regularly, they have shorter lives and they shift workers.

Agnes Roter (21:07)
Thank you for this tidbit. I was curious. I'm also curious about one other thing. You have a lot of acronyms after your name. So I'm assuming a lot of that goes back to your medical training. What are your recommendations?

Mike (21:09)
Yeah.

Yeah. And so the acronyms come from, they're on my book just for authority. People think if you got letters, then you got authority. Right. And so, the letters that I've, that I've included are BSC, MSM, and ACFP. BSC that's your regular bachelor of science degree. I did my undergraduate in biology at Guelph university and Guelph. And then like I say, when I was doing my paramedic training in Colorado, I had a motorcycle, so it was cool. I could ride my motorcycle from Coffman mountain down to Denver.

to go to Regis University where I got my master's of science and management degree. And when I was looking at master's degree, I could have done a, what's the, what's the, what's the main business map master's degree, MBA. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So Regis had an MBA and an MSM and I didn't know what an MSM was either. I knew what an MBA was.

Agnes Roter (22:08)
I should have been top of mine instantly, but...

Mike (22:18)
But when I just looked at the curriculum, the MBA was just so dry and numbers based, right? I was like, my God, I'm good at numbers, but I don't like them. But the MSM was all about leadership. We were studying like Covey and Drucker. It was called management, but it was very leadership based. And it's like, you know what? I just want to learn that. I don't need an MBA to be a paramedic, and I wasn't playing on anything other than that. I wanted to learn the MSM stuff.

So that's why I got my master of science in management because it was, it was on the more of the people side of things as opposed to the numbers. It's similar to an MBA, but MBA is more numbers driven. MSM is more people driven. And so that's where that came from. And then the ACFP is advanced care flight paramedic. And that was a designation I earned with Sunnybrook hospital in Toronto, which allowed me to fly on the helicopter and work three channel ventilators and IV pumps and all this cool stuff, administered blood products and.

Agnes Roter (22:53)
Gotcha.

Mike (23:16)
decompress chests and just do a whole bunch of really cool things that a lot of doctors are afraid to do.

Agnes Roter (23:23)
Do you think marketing is in any way related to what you did as a paramedic?

Mike (23:29)
Not marketing, but just the approach to the user is whether the user is a customer for a product or service or whether the user is a patient. It's all about how we deal with this. It's the psychology of human interactions.

Agnes Roter (23:46)
hence your book. We're going to get there in one second, but I have one other question. Maybe one or two more.

Mike (23:50)
Yep.

Agnes Roter (23:54)
You and I met at the e -commerce conference. But what I noticed from listening to your podcast is you come across lots of really interesting people in the realm of business and marketing, but beyond. What's the most unexpected connection you made recently?

Mike (24:15)
Yeah, so I think the reason I was able to answer your last question so easily about the psychology of the end user is because of the last person I interviewed on my podcast. And so I've got a group of friends, we're in Canada again, and then we all travel down to New Hampshire to, we always climb this 18 kilometer hike called the Franconia Ridge or we hike Mount Lafayette. So anyway, one of the guys in our group, Bill, he has a friend in Ireland named Paul.

And they're co -workers. Well, they're not coworkers, but they know each other through work. And Bill invited Paul to come on the hike. And I knew Paul was in law enforcement, but I didn't know what he did. And, but I didn't know he had trouble crossing the border. So he would fly into Canada and then we'd have to drive to the United States and they would, I never drove in the same car as them, but they'd always get stopped at the border because Paul's passport is full of stamps from Libya, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq. You know,

some of the communist countries, North Korea, probably not North Korea, but yeah. And so like the border patrols like, Paul, what brings you to all of these terrorist nations? And it's, yeah. So it turns out Paul is, he's a hostage negotiator, but not only is he a hostage negotiator, he wrote the standard operating procedures for Scotland Yard in cooperation with the FBI.

Agnes Roter (25:23)
He entices curiosity is what you're saying.

Mike (25:42)
So Scotland yard and the FBI got together to write the SOPs for how we're going to, how they're going to deal with hostages. Cause quite often in some of the bigger arenas, the FBI and Scotland yard works together. So they will have to have the same SOPs anyway. So we finished the hike, one day and then we're all at dinner that night and I'm sitting beside Paul. He asked what I do. I tell him I do marketing. He's like, we do the same thing. I'm like, wait a minute. You're a hostage negotiator. I sell widgets. He's like, it's.

It's all the same thing. It's the psychology of compliance. Like you are trying to get somebody to comply to buy your thing. I'm trying to get somebody to comply to release the hostage, but we're going to use exact same strategies and mechanisms to make that happen. So we do the same thing. So that's, he's the most interesting guy. We had an interesting podcast together and you know, Tara Conway, Tara just messaged me this morning because I think she has a stage for Paul and I to speak on.

And Paul doesn't know this yet. Yes, exactly. So the theme of the conference is communication in times of crisis, which is kind of cool. And 100 % of the people I dealt with as a paramedic, when I communicated with them, were in crisis. And same with Paul. And so, yeah, it'll be interesting to see if this happens and what sort of presentation we can put together.

Agnes Roter (26:43)
Well, this may be the announcement. We use the podcast to announce this.

I think that'd be really awesome to hear you both. I listen to that podcast, so I'm glad you brought up Paul. I was really fascinated by how he can tease out...

follow up stories and I think that's where when you say it's very similar, I guess Paul said it's very similar to marketing is really listening in and in any one conversation interaction, how many different plot lines you could tease out from just an opening line or a question with someone. I found that really fascinating.

Mike (27:41)
That's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Paul's a neat guy. Yeah, so I think we're we're we are going to write a book together. And so, yeah, yeah, not sure what's gonna happen with Paul. We're both pretty busy, but we'll make it work. And he's in Ireland and I'm here. Yeah. Yeah.

Agnes Roter (27:56)
What a great connection. What a great connection. Okay, listen, let's talk about your book. Before we get into the book, though, I need to know is this your horse? Is this photo real? Where does the horse live? Is that the only horse you have? And I know you have lots of animals. So I, for all the pet lovers or animal lovers that are tuning in, you have to give us a little bit of a scoop on that.

Mike (28:02)
Okay.

Yes. Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, so that photo is not on my land. So we have 164 acres, but it's 100 % forested. So we have maples, oaks. Yeah. So, but the neighboring property is, is, and we share trails and everything. That's my neighbor Neal's. And so he has a couple of hay fields. And so that picture is like right on the property line, but on in his hay field. So Monique, my wife took that photo. it is a real photo. Nothing photoshopped about it.

Agnes Roter (28:32)
beautiful.

I love it!

Mike (28:52)
Yeah, and that's my horse Diaz and she's now a 16 or 17 year old paint mare. And she's one of our horses. I also have a quarter horse named Xena and a little pony called Nellie. My wife has a horse as well, but she likes to ride around in circles in an arena. So we have to keep her horse at a very expensive boarding.

stable where she'd have a coach and ride around in circles all day. Her horse is named Polly. But back home we have two miniature goats, Coco and yeah, yeah, and sometimes, yeah, I just took the horses to the meadow yesterday and Coco one of the goats who's the world's fattest goat. We've had two vets come here just as guests for other things. And like, you got to go and I see one's pregnant. Like the vets think my goat is pregnant. I'm like, no, it's just fat. Anyways.

Coco came with us to the meadow yesterday with three horses. And then I've got five rescue dogs. So we've got Fred the Border Collie, Willie the Labradain, Charlie the Basset Hound, Buddy the Basset Hound, and the newest dog who is also the focus of my newest book. Like I say, you're gonna think I'm just making stuff up. But yeah, I've decided Vico's an awesome dog, but has no discipline.

Agnes Roter (30:08)
you

Mike (30:16)
And just every time I call him, he thinks that's if I call like, he'll come here, he'll grab a shoe and run away. Like he's like, this is the game we play when Mike needs me. We're going to play chase the shoe. So yeah, so I'm writing a book with Biko where I'm going to go through the training of him and I'm going to just document it and make a book out of it. So.

Agnes Roter (30:23)
game.

So Nico is the delinquent in the pack so far until...

Mike (30:36)
my gosh, such a delinquent. Yes. He is so full of energy and just loves to make trouble.

Agnes Roter (30:43)
Were you always an animal lover? Because that I counted lots as you were naming the wall.

Mike (30:48)
Yeah. And so the reason we have so many dogs is because I can't say no. And so we started rescuing dogs a little while ago. So I work with an agency and when they can't find a home anywhere else, like Mike, we really need your help. With the exception of Biko. Biko was the dog that I actually wanted, like, cause we have two basset hounds. If anybody's watching the video, there's the black and white one laying on the couch there. the brown one.

You're going to see its feet. Yeah. But anyway, so bass and ounce aren't the best animal here to have here because we have, we have 10 kilometers of our own trails, but I have to have them on a leash because they'll run away. And so I want dogs that will stay with me and just be more well -behaved. So like even though Biko doesn't come when he's called, I go trail riding, I go mountain biking on our trails and he stays with me. What, whereas the bass sounds can't. So, so yeah. So Biko is the, the, my dream dog. And I thought.

Agnes Roter (31:17)
I do see the legs on the couch, yes.

Mike (31:46)
until I got him. I'm like, my gosh, you're a nightmare. He will be my dream dog, but we just have to work together.

Agnes Roter (31:53)
So we should be tuning into the book is what you're saying.

Mike (31:56)
Beko Unleashed is his he's got his note. I started an Instagram channel for him on Saturday. So it's Beko Unleashed. Yeah, so we'll see how that goes.

Agnes Roter (32:04)
Okay, so this is like the first advertising effort.

Mike (32:07)
Yes, yes. You are actually the first person I, well besides my wife, you're the first person I told about Beco Unleashed and this is the global announcement, yes. Yeah, yeah.

Agnes Roter (32:15)
This is a global announcement, exactly.

Well, listen, I feel your pain about dogs that run away. We used to have a greyhound also rescued dog and we lived in the city so that was always really tough I think. For her is, you know, they're trained to race and even like a flutter of a paper bag somewhere in the distance would be enough to give them a pillow. So yes, always on the leash. Yeah, but it sounds like your property is a dream property for dogs.

Mike (32:30)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah. wow. Yeah.

Yeah.

It is, yeah, I don't know how I did it, but yeah. People are like, how are things? I say live in the dream and they think I'm joking, but no, there's nothing I would change, not a thing. Yep.

Agnes Roter (32:58)
Yes. my God, yes. You know, I absolutely. Okay, well let's get into the book a little bit.

Mike (33:07)
Okay.

Agnes Roter (33:08)
I had, as you know, lots of questions as I was reading it. The first one though was an opening story that you talk about in one of the first chapters. So it's a story of a young girl named Katie who loses her arm in a really, really horrible accident. And I've told you this, so now I will tell our listeners. I was reclined on the couch and I was, you know, reading a marketing book and all great and underlining what I needed to understand.

the line and when I got to that part I literally sat up on the couch like almost shot off the of my you know comfy cozy spot because it was that of a dramatic opening so without spilling the beans too much because if someone hasn't read the book I don't want to ruin it for them tell me about where Katie ended up.

What happened to Katie and are you able to set stage just enough so that as I listen to what we're talking about, that we're not ruining the veil if you haven't picked up the book yet.

Mike (34:09)
Yeah, yeah, and.

So.

So the reason I introduced Katie and it's funny because a lot of the things that I do, I do it just naturally. And then I reflect on what I've done. I kind of dissect it from there. Like, like when I was, when I, when I had that success with the bootcamp gym and Chino Hills, I wasn't doing empathic marketing with that label. I was just doing what I do. Right. And then I was getting these results and I was like, how am I getting these results? And I reflected back. I was like, this is how it works. Right. And so.

When I got on this whole empathic marketing path, I started to think about my life in general and about how I've always applied empathy in everything I do. And I know one of the best things that works for anything related to marketing is a story. And so I wanted to get readers attention with a story that really helped them understand what empathy means. And so what I was saying with Katie is that most paramedics, like we're trained to treat the physical body, right? So she needed.

she needed oxygen, she needed IV, she needed pain meds, right? She needed, you know, monitoring. She needed to be on a stretcher. Like these are all the things that you do to the person. And I knew how to do all those things and I could have just done all those things and, and her arm would have been the same had I done it my way. And so when I did it my way, I did all those things. But first and foremost, I looked at what Katie was experiencing from her perspective. And so what was crazy about

Katie is in that the way she lost her arm, it wasn't bleeding at all. So it wasn't like a life threatening injury, like she wasn't going to die regardless of how long we took, right? If she was spurting blood, then it would have been a different call altogether, right? And also just with the shock or whatever, she wasn't really in that much pain, but she was still freaking out because of what happened to her, right? And so the first, so I could have just went in and grabbed her, you know, stabbed her with a needle and gave her some fluids and pain meds and,

Increased her trauma her mental trauma or I could deal with her as a person right and create a bond with her first And so that's how I dealt with it. I created that that was the moral of the story is I created a bond with her first So when it was time to start the IV, she wasn't afraid of the needle. She wasn't afraid of me You have to remember I'm six to my two partners were big firefighters all dressed in blue like we are You if you saw us coming down the street in the dark alley, you know You'd cross the road right because we're a big scary lot. And so this little

whatever, 70 pound girls probably anyway. So that was the moral of the story is that you need to take time to identify like identify with your patient first, but it's the same when you're dealing with your customers, you need to relate to them. And what are their pains? What are they experiencing? And how can you address them before you get to what they really need or what you really want to do?

Agnes Roter (37:05)
Do you know what happened to Katie since then? There is not.

Mike (37:07)
Yeah. And so just to set the stage for when I met Katie, like I said, there was three of us. And the reason there was three of us is because I did that call when I was doing my internship with the Englewood fire department. So Englewood is a community outside of, of, of Denver. And so I was the third person I worked the a shift with doc was my mentor. He was the guy who oversaw everything I did. And I forget who his partner was that day, but anyway, so.

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that that was a traumatic call, but as a paramedic, that's the job. So it's kind of hard to know what call at the time is going to, you know, influence you years from now. And so, so with that said, I didn't follow up with it after, cause it was just a call, but because of the nature of the call, I did learn that doc, my mentor, and I know it sounds funny his name's doc, cause that's just so stereotypical of like a TV show, but maybe that's why they called him that. I didn't call him that. It was.

Agnes Roter (37:59)
you

Mike (38:04)
Anyway, so Doc set up a, like a, some sort of fundraising campaign for Katie. So the firefighters all did stuff. I don't know if they did a calendar. I wasn't invited to be part of it, but, whatever. Yeah. They raised money so that because Katie's age, she was like seven or nine years old at the time, she was going to need like five or six different prosthetics as she grew. Right. You don't want to be like a 12 year old girl with a seven year old arm. So.

Agnes Roter (38:16)
Hmm.

Mike (38:31)
She needed new prosthetics. So Doc set up some sort of fundraising campaign ongoing that would enable her to pay for these, these all of the prosthetics she needs through life.

Agnes Roter (38:43)
Well, mission accomplished with a dramatic opening. I'll tell you that I think hopefully we'll enticing people to now tune into that chapter to see exactly what we mean.

Mike (38:46)
Yeah, thank you.

Well, and the other thing is, and this is funny as I'm reading my Amazon reviews, like most people are saying that they're getting a lot of value of the book as a marketing tool, but it's not written like any of the other marketing books. And, and I did that with intent, right? Cause what I did is I wrote the book with empathy from the reader's perspective.

Agnes Roter (39:07)
I would 100 % agree, yes. Absolutely.

Aha! Yes, I would agree. It's not written like a textbook, for sure. I think that's very helpful in just how you consume the material.

Mike (39:21)
Mm -hmm.

Agnes Roter (39:28)
The book is based on what we just said, empathic marketing. The title itself tells you exactly what you believe about marketing or good marketing or impactful marketing. Why do you think it's so hard to be empathetic when you are designing marketing campaigns? Why do we need a book to guide other marketers?

Mike (39:48)
I hate them.

I think the reason it's so hard to have empathy in our marketing is because we've lost so much of our empathy in human life. That's the big problem. Like, I don't think we're nearly as empathetic towards our fellow man as we once were. And there's so many reasons for that. Digital age. Like, we just don't have the same human touch that we used to have. Like, you and I are meeting right now through a screen interface, right?

30 years ago, if we wanted this to happen, we would be in the same room, right? And this would probably be a different, this is a great interview that we're having, but it would be different if you and I were in the same room, right? And so so much that we're doing is through the digital space now, right? Everything has to be now, quick, fast, right? So we don't have time to nurture that relationship. And I think what's even accelerated even more, even though I wrote the book pre -COVID, is COVID has made it worse, right? Because,

we just have that much more distance, like all the social distancing that we did during that time. And now it's still lingering, right? We're still, like my wife works for the federal government. She goes in two days a week, where it used to be five days, right? And so there's just that human connection is lost. So I think if you don't have that same human connection in everyday life, how are you going to apply it to your job?

Agnes Roter (41:13)
That is a much deeper place you went than I assumed you would when I was thinking of this question.

Mike (41:19)
Yeah, well, it's just related to the question. Like if you wanted to be on a more surface level and it's the sort of the same thing is that empathetic marketing is consumer based marketing and it's not quite as numbers driven as tech typical marketing. So with most of us marketers, what are we worried about? Like this quarter, maybe next quarter. Like we got to get this quarter's numbers. I can't build a relationship with you this quarter. Like it's, it's more of a longterm play.

Agnes Roter (41:47)
Yeah.

Mike (41:49)
And when I, it's too bad you missed my, my presentation, but like I compared it to a dating, like a courtship, right. And Agnes, like if we were both single and open to marriage, it would be really hard. Like I gotta get married, you know, before the end of July. Like if my intention was to marry you before the end of July, I probably wouldn't be able to do it. Like there's just too much pressure. I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't do it. Right. But if I had a year.

to get you to say yes. Well, then I could take the time to build that relationship. Right. And so it's like Cubby has the four quadrants, right. And how to seven, seven habits of effective people. Right. So he has the set the four quadrants and we're so many businesses are in that, like, what's it called? The, the, the one quadrant where you have to do everything now, like it's just short -term goals in short -term results.

Agnes Roter (42:32)
Yes.

Mike (42:46)
And we're not spending enough time in that relationship developing section. We need to be doing that.

Agnes Roter (42:53)
I think your theories are similar to, as I was reflecting on this question, to my theories. It's really hard. You're right. We have so many practical and numerical goals that it takes investment and a longer -term conversation with anybody. This is a relationship with your customers like any other relationship. You quote some really great examples in your book of the brands that do it right. I think what's really interesting about your book,

Mike (43:07)
Mm -hmm.

Agnes Roter (43:23)
because you start to give tips to the smaller businesses who are maybe just starting out and don't have the budgets of the likes of, you know, Nike or Coca -Cola, et cetera. So those like really big, you know, budgets and spends and quite honestly, also longevity across time, right? So you build awareness about your brand because you've been around for many, many, many decades. That's really hard for me to get new business to do really quickly and do really well.

Mike (43:52)
But speaking to that, so Nike has lost the throne for the last few quarters. They're losing out to New Balance on the running front. And what's interesting, what New Balance is doing is something that the smaller guy could go against Nike with. Okay? I'm not saying New Balance is a small company. New Balance is still a monster, right? They're not Nike. And the reason they've toppled Nike is because Nike...

has been going after the elite athlete. They've been trying to help their athletes break the two minute marathon. Okay. So that's their sole focus is on that elite market. And they've created this crazy shoe. That's an oversized shoe that actually puts the energy back into the runner so they can run faster. Okay. And it's, it's, it's legit technology. And that's what they've been selling is the technology.

And like say, but they're losing to New Balance because New Balance, do you know Jeremy Renner from the Marvel comics? Yeah. So Jeremy got crushed by a snowplow, broke 38 bones, his heart had stopped. New Balance sent him a pair of shoes. And I guess they just sent out shoes to people, right? And they weren't, they didn't know what would happen, but Jeremy, Jeremy started wearing these shoes and he was told he could never, he would never walk again. But now.

Agnes Roter (44:47)
Yes, yeah. Yeah.

I think I saw that online and he posted a video.

Mike (45:10)
Yeah, he posted a video. So now, just run there or something. Just run there, I think is their motto, something along those lines. But anyway, New Balance's marketing is story -based. So what New Balance has done is they've been able to re -engineer Nike's energy return technology.

So they've got very similar technology to Nike, but they don't talk about it. They don't talk about that at all. What they talk about is Jeremy Renner and people like him who are doing things that they didn't think they'd be able to do because of these shoes. It's all story based, right? Whereas, and they're going after the average person, not that Jeremy Renner is an average person, but he was like physically, he was less than the average person. 38 broken bones, heart had stopped, told you never walk again, right? And now he's doing all these stuff.

because well, not because, but partially because of these New Balance shoes, right? And so it's this whole story -based thing that Nike is missing the mark on and New Balance is leveraging to overtake Nike in the running space.

Agnes Roter (46:22)
What do you think, as you explained this one specific example, what do you think they get right in terms of tapping into emotions and how does it connect back to the empathy or having empathy for your customer?

Mike (46:42)
Yeah, it's just, it's the story. It's just the story based thing, right? Like we're like, we can tell. So Jeremy Renner is famous, right? But would that story have been that much less impactful if it was like, just if it was me, like a nobody who got run over by a snowplow, broke 38 bones, hard to stop doctors. Like imagine if New Balance said, hey, this is Mike Caldwell on December of, you know, 2022 he was run over by a snowplow, broke 38 bones. It's hard to stop for like,

37 seconds, doctors say he would never walk again. Check out Mike today as he does his first steps up and down the driveway. Like, I don't think that story would be that much less impactful telling my story than Jeremy Renner's, right? Because it's the story. It's the thing that people can relate to. It's why Netflix is a multi -billion dollar company because we want to see stories. And that's so that's what they're getting right. Like say they're focusing on the story. And so in the book, I talk about Budweiser. That's what Budweiser did, right?

like Budweiser, most of their commercials didn't have a beer in it. Didn't even have their logo in it. You have to look closely. Like when the farmer is feeding the Clydesdale horses and his little puppies running along beside him, right? He might have a Budweiser hat on, but I swear when I was writing the book and I wanted to get a picture, I had a really hard time finding a screenshot where I could clearly see the Budweiser brand on his hat. Like Budweiser did not focus on the beer.

because it's not good beer. Like I don't think even Budweiser would try to tell you it's a good beer. Like compared to a craft brew, like it can't hold a candle to the taste and flavor and the quality of a craft brew, but it doesn't matter because they are so good at telling the stories, right? And they built this huge market and then they didn't have empathy for their market. They didn't understand their market and they decided to be sponsored or marketed by a transgender person.

And like, let's not get political about that. But when you know your market base is a bunch of red neck NASCAR driving, you know, beer drinkers and they see that a transgender person is also drinking the beer like that is the one huge mistake where they went off brand. And we saw how damaging that was because they didn't take the time to understand everything that they had built over the years.

Agnes Roter (49:04)
So these are really big brands, but your book, I find is so interesting because it gives you as a marketer, maybe in a company that is just starting up or a smaller company doesn't have the same level of, as we said, already pre -existing awareness or massive product distribution. I find it very, very helpful the way you walk.

Mike (49:07)
Mm -hmm.

Agnes Roter (49:31)
business owners or marketers through the steps in your model. I think we call it a model. It's like well outlined. What are those five steps and do you think which of those do you think is the toughest for businesses or brands to get right?

Mike (49:38)
Right. Sure.

Well, the five steps of empathic marketing are first taking the time to understand your audience. And there's two levels of that. You have to have an experiential and emotional understanding. And then once you have that, you want to have what I call your have to have it hook. Like what is going to get attention, get them to listen. But getting attention is that's, I'm not saying it's easy, but that attention is fleeting. So how can you make them believe that you can deliver on that big promise in the hook?

So you need what I call your big differentiator. That's the thing that sets you apart that nobody else has. And actually I say that, it doesn't have to be something that nobody else has. It has to be something that nobody else talks about. So in the book, I talked about like the Schlitz Brewing Company that was like number seven in the market or whatever. And when Ogilvy went through to do the marketing for it, he saw how clean, their focus on purity. He's like, why you guys aren't talking about all those purity steps that you're taking?

And the brew meister is like, well, that's cause this is the way you make beer. You have to make beer this way. He's like, well, I didn't know that nobody else is talking about that. So Schlitz stuck its flag in how pure their beer was. And they'd be the first to tell you it's no more pure than everybody else, but they just planted their flag saying our beer is pure. And they went from number seven to like number two in the market because they own something that everybody else has. So that's your three. So, understand hook differentiator.

The next is your offer. And what a lot of businesses, especially the smaller businesses don't understand is your offer isn't your product. It's everything that goes around your product. So do you have bonuses with the product? What are your terms of payment? Like there's just so many, your warranty, right? So many things now, like that's why Amazon is so popular because I know I can buy something on Amazon. It doesn't matter what it is. I got 30 days, send it back, no questions asked. That's part of the allure of Amazon, right? And then.

So have a strong irresistible offer. And then fifth, and this kind of goes back to understanding your audience, but I framed it differently in understanding your audience's false limiting beliefs. So if I'm gonna say something to you, like right now, just the way society is, if I'm gonna make a statement to you, you're already saying no in the back of your head and you're already creating reasons to say no, right? So I have to know what those reasons are. So if I address them before you can say them, then we don't argue.

Right? Cause you don't want that conflict. Cause if you say it, if I present the argument, counter argument after that, well, you're still going to dig your heels in, right? You're not going to want to give me the, give me the rope on that one. But if I can address the problems before you bring them up, then it's much more likely to go in my favor. and the second part of your question was, which is the hardest. And that's probably the hook. And the reason that is, is because a hook has to be.

Agnes Roter (52:29)
Yes.

Mike (52:37)
benefit based, right? We want to have what the benefit is, but we're all saying the same thing. So how can we say the same thing that everybody else is saying, but in a new and completely unique way? And so my best example for that, I think, and this is a big brand, but you have to use big brands so everybody knows it's Kentucky Fried Chicken. Cause what's Kentucky Fried Chicken? It's finger licking good, right? Are they saying it's the crispiest chicken? You know, the, the, the moistest chicken like,

Because that's what people want. They want crisp, moist chicken. Hey, eat Kentucky Fried Chicken. It's crispy and moist. Like that would make no sales. Right? Because every brand is saying their chicken is crispy and moist. But they're saying it's finger licking good. And that has such a good visual of like, you know, this is so good, I want to eat the last rough. But it's also, the thing you need to understand is a hook is different than a slogan. So just do it.

That is Nike, everybody knows that. But that's their brand ethos, right? That's not particular, like that's not why I'm gonna buy an Air Jordan shoe. Just do it. Like those two things don't tie together, right? But for KFC, you got your finger looking good. But again, I'm already saying no. I'm like, I don't know if it's that good. Why is it that good? And then KFC is because we've got 11 secret herbs and spices. Like, ooh.

Agnes Roter (53:37)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (54:05)
Okay. Does Mary Brown's have 11 herbs and spike spices? Does Popeyes? They don't, right? So if I want to know what those 11 herbs and spices tastes like to make the chicken so finger licking good, I got to go with KFC because nobody else can deliver it. So that's, that's what I love about KFC. They're marketing where they can't with those two things. And I love that their hook is three words long. That's also like good luck ever doing that again. Finding a hook that strong with three words.

Agnes Roter (54:35)
I think I agree with you. I also see this translate itself into how challenging it is to write a really good creative brief if you're working with an agency or a creative team because that's what they're looking for, right? They can give you a great slogan, but you have to be crystal clear on what is that one thing you want to convey. It's tough. It's too narrowed down. Yeah. I have one.

Mike (54:46)
Mm -hmm.

That's right. It is. Yeah.

Agnes Roter (55:03)
Last, maybe second last, let's see. Question for you. You work with a lot of different clients and in different verticals. But what does your ideal client look like?

Mike (55:18)
So I'm actually in a transition right now. Cause like you said, I've been working with the smaller entrepreneurs, solopreneurs and a couple of, a couple of challenges with them, nothing against them, but they're usually one or two man shows and they just don't have one of the financial resources. They don't have the time resources to invest in what, what needs to be done. So the shift I'm trying to make now is to work with the larger brands, the larger organizations who are recognizing that traditional institutional marketing isn't working as well as it used to.

There's just too much noise, clutter in the space and they're interested in willing to invest in that longer term, you know, customer centric, more of a direct response marketing plan. So my ideal client is like say a bigger organization with a team of marketers who I can work alongside to help them not focus on this quarter because you guys are good at this quarter. But like there's a lot of businesses now who don't know if they're going to be around in three years.

but you know, we're going to deal with that later. You can't, you can't deal with that. Like we got to get this quarter settled and then we'll think about three years from now. I want to work with the business is like, okay, let's work on this quarter. But alongside parallel to that, we need another team. Let's look at the long -term plan and how can we start building? And it's, it's even more crucial now because of the eye candy or not the candy, but the, like the low, the shiny object in AI, like AI.

is teaching businesses how to be less consumer centric. It's like, let's let the robots deal with it all, right? And so I think some of the businesses are going to start to realize like, yeah, if we just let the robots handle everything, we are going to totally lose touch with our audience. And the long -term isn't looking as bright as maybe it should.

Agnes Roter (57:07)
Right, it's a means to an end, not the end.

Mike (57:09)
Yeah. and I'm not knocking the AI. I use AI like crazy and AI can definitely be used in a long -term game. But like, like say right now we're just looking at this quarter's profits and we've got to start looking beyond that. Like say I'm what's so good about what I've done before with the smaller businesses is if, so if I have a business and they've got like a $10 ,000 marketing budget for this month, like they have to get money back. Like,

It's like I said, 36 to one return on ad spend. We have to track return on ad spend. So I can't do a full page ad in Sports Illustrated for my truck. Like if I'm on the Chevy's marketing team. Because how many sales does that full page ad in Sports Illustrated bring? Like there's no way to track that at all. We have no idea. Like Sports Illustrated will say it's got a readership of this many hundred thousand people.

But how many people read the ad, look at the ad, how many people, you know, go to their local dealer because of that ad, there's no way to track it. So yeah, so that's something else that I like to bring to the bigger organizations is like, let's look at ways where we can actually track our ROAS, our return on ad spend and make sure that we're actually make that what we're saying is making a difference in bringing in sales.

Agnes Roter (58:22)
Yes, you're speaking my love language, marketing. It's such a fascinating space. Maybe for people who don't work in marketing, maybe it feels or it seems like we just shoot TV commercials, but I think it's so many things. Everything you just called out, longer term brand investment, short term offer based investment.

Mike (58:45)
Well, going back to the trucks, like I think they are just shooting commercials. It's like, Hey, let's find a different mountain with new snow. We can drive this truck up. Like that's the only ad I've seen for all the truck companies on TV for the last, since I've had a truck, like they're all just a truck pulling something heavy through the snow up a mountain. It was a different color truck. You're not doing anything that's grabbed my attention. It's just white noise to me now. They need to do something different.

Agnes Roter (59:09)
Yeah, breaking your wrist off, you're right. We could spend like hours on dissecting that.

Mike (59:13)
Yeah, yeah.

Agnes Roter (59:16)
Okay, one last question because we have to be mindful of time. But as I'm talking to you and as we chatted before, and as I read your book, you know, and even through this conversation, it's so clear that your mind is incredibly curious and this theme of, do you have some time on my hands? So how can I get to the next thing, explore something different, you know, learn something new is so omnipresent.

And that to me strikes me a little bit as I said upfront, you know, what are people's strengths? I think this curiosity is 100 % one of yours. But if it wasn't balanced with a strong work ethic, I don't think it would go anywhere. So where does that come from? Is that, I don't know, for going back to your early days of young Mike, like how did you come to one understanding?

that this curiosity can take your places and to build a work ethic that says, I'm going to get there, do this, I think of an idea, I'm going to try it, I will do it and actually work up making it happen over and over again.

Mike (1:00:31)
Yeah, I think it's my desire to win. I just love to win. And it doesn't matter what I'm competing. Most people don't even know I'm competing against them. I just like to win. And so I grew up in a great household. Like this, it was, it was fine. But my parents are the most conservative parents in the world. So they started dating. My mom was in grade eight. My dad was in grade nine. In high school, my dad got a part -time job at a corrugated box factory.

out of high school, they offered him a full -time job. So he's like, sure. Right. So my dad had the same partner, the same job for like 40 plus years. Right. It just, that's all he knew. That's all he did. And that's the life he wanted for me. And I didn't. So it's funny because we had dinner at five 30 every night, five 30 every night we had dinner and I'd sit at the table and my sister would be there. My mom, my dad sat down and he would just start complaining.

just start complaining about Olga at work. I remember, I remember Olga's name coming up a lot, right? Just, just complaining. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're, they're older now. So, but yeah, it would just be like, yeah, that's, that's that like nobody, we wouldn't talk at dinner. We would just listen to my dad complain about how much he hated his life, his life. Right. And so I think some people can just get mindset. That's brainwashed. That's how it's going to be. And I think from an early age, I was just saying, no, right. No.

Agnes Roter (1:01:35)
Hopefully Olga's not listening.

Mike (1:02:00)
No, no, no, no, no. And so growing up, every time I said I was gonna do something, my parents would generally not support me, not out of malice, but just because they didn't want to see me fail and have to deal with failure. So if you don't try something, then you can't fail. And so, and I think, no, that was the, that was the start of my first book. So every time somebody says you can't do something, I was like, hold my hat. You know?

Agnes Roter (1:02:30)
Well that's a good motivator. It's a very good idea.

Mike (1:02:30)
Yeah, it's I'm more motivated by the things I don't think I can do than the things I think I can do. And yeah, so I don't Yeah, that we would need a lot more couch time to figure out like how this came to be for me. But yeah, I just I just

Agnes Roter (1:02:48)
little bit of this rebellion than against and that happens often right if parents want you know this is what teenagers especially I have two teens at home now it's not uncommon if mom says a you wanted to be

Mike (1:02:54)
Yeah!

And it's funny because rebellion is a good term. But at the same time, I've still got like, my parents have a good work work ethic. Like my dad, I don't think he ever called in sick. And you know, there's 40 some odd years that he worked there. I don't think he ever called him sick a day, you know, because he had to go to work, right? My mom never missed a 530 meal, like five thirds on the table, like so so so that brainwashing was there. And then on the surface was the rebellion. So the two things had to marry each other. So even

when I went to paramedic school as one example, I'm like, I want to go to paramedic school, but I also want to ski. So the only paramedic schools I applied to were in Colorado, Northern California, Washington and Oregon. Like I'm going to go to states where I could better my education, learn something new, but on the weekends go skiing. So I became a ski bum that was, you know, furthering his life. And so pretty much everything I've ever done has been along those terms, right? I'm going to have fun.

But at the same time, having this fun is gonna make me a better person, you know, in the eyes of the masses. So, yeah.

Agnes Roter (1:04:11)
Well, I feel like that is like maybe a thread that we pick up in another conversation or other podcasts because I think Mike, you've lived so many lives, so many different careers, which is fascinating. So I have fun. Thank you for letting me do this.

Mike (1:04:23)
Yeah, I've been very fortunate. Yeah.

Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully my listeners want to hear a little bit because when I usually do the podcast, they I don't say much. I just ask the question. So hopefully they're a little bit curious about who is this guy? Yeah, personally and and from the marketing side, so it worked out well.

Agnes Roter (1:04:42)
Who is this guy exactly? Well, now we know a little bit more.

Yes, well thank you.

Mike (1:04:50)
Well, thank you, Agnes. We'll have to do another conference together where we can present.

Agnes Roter (1:04:57)
Yes, I'm sure Terra I find is on a mission and we're always in good hands when Terra is planning things, so who knows. I'm at the CMO Summit tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes. But it looks like a good group of attendees, so yeah, it's fun. Those things are fun.

Mike (1:05:02)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay. Well, if we do the retail conference of Canada, one of the RCC one in September together, I think Tara is pushing for Paul to be there with us. So yeah.

Agnes Roter (1:05:19)
yes!

That would be really amazing. Listen, he's a very, as you described, interesting, very interesting story. Interesting, I bet he has stories that we can't even imagine, probably stories he also can't tell. So, yeah.

Mike (1:05:39)
Yeah. Yeah. I, so I said, like with the presentation that I do on my own, I talked about a courtship and so I bring in an audience, bring a single female out of the audience as a volunteer and I get down on one knee and I have my box and my wedding ring and I proposed to her right there and you know, it surprises her, it surprises the audience. And, I think with Paul, I've already like, this is just, I just, we just got this email from Tara this morning, but I would like to like maybe put up a

barrier, have Paul on one side of the barrier, me on the other side of the barrier, bring up a volunteer and I'll have a plastic gun and I'll just like, I'm not letting Agnes go until you give me $1 million. Right? I think that's how I want to start that is I want to like have my, and I'll talk to you first, but like, I'm not letting her go. And then Paul can talk me down and we can sort of go through it. I'm like what, how, what he does with the psychology of intent and of marketing to get me to release the hostage. And then once we go through that little.

Agnes Roter (1:06:17)
my god.

Mike (1:06:38)
drama then we'll bring it back to you.

Agnes Roter (1:06:39)
I find his insights fascinating. I also find his voice very soothing. I don't know if you noticed that and I thought I could talk to Paul for hours. I feel like just his voice like and I'm sure there's psychology to that too that he trains and how do you bring the temperature down in the conversation.

Mike (1:06:52)
Yes.

Yeah, the friends that I hang out with that introduced me to Paul, they listened to podcasts and like, wow, like we've never heard Paul talk about things like that before. Like this is a whole, whole new world. Like you wouldn't know that was a whole new world for Paul. Like he was, he's an expert already in marketing. Yeah. But his, our friends are like completely shocked that he was able to speak at that level with so little marketing experience. Right.

Agnes Roter (1:07:11)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So cool.

Right.

Mike (1:07:28)
Yeah, he's really been able to tie things together quick. So yeah, he's a bright mind for sure.

Agnes Roter (1:07:31)
It was a very good talk. I mean, you have quite a few interesting guests there. I have to dash to my 11. If you notice close to 11, I just quietly pinged my 11 a that I'll be late. I hope that didn't throw us off or I'm glad that that didn't throw us off. But this was fun. So thank you. Let me know when it's live. I'll give it some legs through.