Because Business is Personal

Discovering the Power of "Yes, And": Tracy Shea Porter on Leadership, Empathy, and Improv in Marketing and Sales

Mike Caldwell Season 1 Episode 16

Send us a text

Unlock the transformative power of improvisation in business and leadership with Tracy Shea Porter, CEO and co-founder of Yes Unlimited. Ever wondered how the principles of "Yes, And" could revolutionize your team dynamics and communication skills? Join us for an engaging conversation where Tracy shares her journey from an English major at the University of Toronto to a leader in applied improvisation. Expect to laugh as we reminisce about our English class escapades, setting the stage for a deeper dive into how improv can reshape everyday interactions.

We'll illustrate the profound impact of choosing "yes, and" over "no" or "yes, but" through personal anecdotes from our theater sports days and the Canadian Space Opera Company. Experience firsthand how these choices can either stifle or spark creativity and collaboration. We'll also reveal practical exercises you can implement immediately to enhance active listening, teamwork, and innovative thinking in your organization.

Marketing and sales professionals, this one's for you too! Discover how empathy and improv intersect to create more authentic and effective marketing strategies. Learn to move beyond traditional cold calls and foster genuine connections with clients. Real-life stories and exercises will showcase the transformative power of empathy in leadership and negotiation, emphasizing the importance of authentic communication in today’s AI-influenced world. Don’t miss out on these valuable insights that could elevate your business and personal interactions to new heights.

Eager to harness the power of Empathic Marketing to propel your business growth? Get your hands on my #1 Amazon Best Selling book, 'Empathic Marketing,' or book a '30-Minute Gap Analysis' session directly from my website: www.becausebusinessispersonal.com.

Discover a wealth of knowledge in our podcast archives at www.becausebusinessispersonal.com.

Stay connected and follow me on social media for more insights and updates:

Join our community and elevate your marketing game today!

Speaker 1:

Hey, welcome to the Because Business is Personal podcast, the podcast where empathy meets marketing strategy. I'm your host, mike Caldwell, but I'm also known as the marketing medic. Now, the reason for that is because, before becoming a marketing strategist, I actually worked as a paramedic for 12 years. It was during that time that I realized how important it was to truly understand the problems your patient was facing before you started providing treatment. And it's the same understanding, the same empathy, is just as crucial when it comes to understanding our prospects and making sales, and that's why, in each episode, we'll dissect the art of empathic marketing, exploring how top professionals infuse empathy into their strategies to build stronger relationships, boost their sales and make a lasting impact. So buckle up and prepare to turn up the dial on your marketing effectiveness. Now let's get started with our episode.

Speaker 1:

Hey, everyone, welcome back to another ever exciting episode of Because Business is Personal. Today I've got a fun guest that I found on LinkedIn. Her name is Tracy Shea Porter, and she is the CEO and co-founder of yes Unlimited, and she's the author of yes and Business Evolution Improv Skills for Leadership and Life. As an entrepreneur, facilitator, a speaker and a writer, tracy has extensive experience in both the business world and applied improvisation. Help me say that, tracy.

Speaker 2:

Improvisation.

Speaker 1:

Improvisation, improvisation. We're improvising, there we go, I'm improvising as we go. She designs and delivers improv training to a broad range of diverse international clients. So, tracy, super welcome to have you here.

Speaker 2:

Mike, I'm so excited. I love your podcast focus. Business is Personal. It's amazing and true, right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and since you are a diehard listener, you know what the first question is. The first question is because business is personal. Please tell us something about yourself that is not business related, but the audience would find interesting.

Speaker 2:

Right. Well, one thing to know about me is that I have an English degree from the University of Toronto and while I was working full time, I did that degree over a period of years and it made the experience fantastic, because I really love reading and studying, thinking and literature, and that actually explains why maybe I wrote a book eventually. So that's one interesting point about me a humanities degree.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's a funny story about English and myself and a book. Yeah, there's a funny story about English and myself in the book.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1:

I was actually kicked out of my grade 13 English class permanently. So at the time you needed grade 13 OAC English to get into university. But I was kicked out, the reason being because when we came into class every morning, there'd be two words on the board and one word you'd have to break up into its components and make other words from those two components. And another word would be a word that we hadn't heard before and we'd have to learn what it was. So one day we come into the room and it's autograph on the board and loquacious. And so autograph. We'd have to make words out of auto and words out of graph. Right and loquacious. Anyway, because I was whatever 17 years old and a complete douchebag and, oh my gosh, as an adult now I'm so embarrassed by this question. But I raised my hand and I asked my teacher I'm like sir, why do we need to learn a word like loquacious? It's not something we could ever use in everyday conversation, because we're just going to come off as all hoity-toity. Because we're just going to come off as all hoity-toity.

Speaker 1:

And I don't know my teacher much. Well, I think I've been needling him all through the year, but that day he was having a bad day and he just lost it. He was a balding guy and this vein popped out of his head and he just went on a rant Like why learn anything? Why even have schools right? And he was 100% legit. And oh my, have schools right. And he was 100% legit. And oh my gosh, I deserved everything he threw at me. But when he was done his rant, I said so, sir, would that be an example of somebody being loquacious? Yeah, as it was coming out of my mouth, I knew where the line was. I knew I had crossed it.

Speaker 1:

He just pointed at the door and said out Forever Went to the gym, played basketball with the basketball crew and then went back the next day and he's like you know what, mike? There's just not enough room in this class for both of us.

Speaker 2:

Is that what he said?

Speaker 1:

yeah, that is hilarious he's like and I can't leave, I'm the teacher. I'm like yeah, no, I get that. So, uh, but luckily I went. I went, I have a sign. I went for a science degree. All my other marks were, uh, were extremely high, so I was. I still got accepted with the full scholarship. But, uh, yeah, I got into university without an english degree and then I felt really proud later. I'm like, like, and I wrote two books. I wonder if my English teacher has any published books.

Speaker 2:

There you go. You know, this example, mike, while you're talking, is so beautiful, leading into some of the conversation we're going to have. And I want to mention this to your listeners right now. Why this is so beautiful? Because we totally improvised that I didn't even know I was going to say the English degree thing. You didn't know you were going to tell this story, right, and what's really interesting about this is that we just improvised.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and this is how people communicate every day in the office, as they walk down the neighborhood, wherever they are in the coffee shop, and the thing I want to mention about it is that as soon as someone says something in this case I mentioned the english degree it gets. It will have you coming up with the stories. Your brain will filter through, okay, to the stories that relate to what I was talking about, and in in your case, it was this experience you had in grade 13. The reason that's really interesting is that, if you think about it, when you say something at work say at work you have an idea Like why don't we try a podcast for the office or whatever? Or why don't we bring beanbag chairs in? Whatever it is, whoever's listening, all the people listening will each have their own experience based on their collection of stories and thoughts right you could say ego, right, yep, and the beautiful thing is some self-awareness around.

Speaker 2:

Hey, I'm experiencing that story through the lens of every experience I've ever had. Okay, and why that's important is and I love how we started that way, so impromptu, right. Why that's important is because you're having a response, your very own personal response, to every single thing you hear.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Based on everything that's ever happened to you and because everyone's response is completely different. How do we disrupt both? Tell our story because our story needs to be heard. We want to tell our story and be heard. And how does improv improvisation we're going to get into disrupt our stories too and help us create something new. So I love this beginning okay because it's kind of deep right it's yeah, yeah uh, and my book?

Speaker 2:

in my book I talk about ego and conditioning and how we show up with everything that ever happened to us in every interaction okay and when we start to observe ourselves, we can can go oh, I'm going to tell this story and be aware that we're doing that.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Have awareness.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Hey, I'm telling a story from my collection of stories, because this story you could say triggered or and triggers can be positive.

Speaker 1:

They can be tricky.

Speaker 1:

It's a beautiful leadin to talking about improv and applied improvisation actually, so stay tuned for more of this, I think it's interesting because, as I was starting to tell my story, I was aware and what I was aware of is like I was aware that I'm here to interview you, not tell my own story. So I was aware of that. But then I weighed that with, this is kind of a funny story that I think the the our listeners would like to hear. So I'm you not tell my own story. So I was aware of that, but then I weighed that with, this is kind of a funny story that I think the the our listeners would like to hear. So I'm like, okay, I am going to tell this story, even though I'm aware that it's not, you know, part of the normal journey of a pod of my podcast, where I do ask the questions that you provide the answers.

Speaker 2:

Well, look how beautiful that co-creation was, because now we're letting the reader, or the listener, the reader in on something really interesting that we all like. I think that was perfect, beautiful, not that anything needs to be perfect because, when it comes to failure is the goal.

Speaker 1:

So okay so before we move forward with that stuff I want to go backward a little bit and like looking through your book. I see that you are one of the first people in Canada to get your MBA remotely. Is that correct?

Speaker 2:

uh, mba remote? Oh, I think. Okay. So if you, I think what you're referring to is that Ron Tite, who did the introduction, maybe, to my book yes uh, rontite was at Queen's University Right While I was working at Bell Canada. Oh okay, and what we were doing is we introduced the first executive MBA program back in the 90s.

Speaker 1:

Okay, bell Canada did.

Speaker 2:

Bell, canada, together with. Queen's that's okay. Bell Canada, together with Queen's, introduced the first executive MBA program available by video conferencing back in the day.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So Bell Canada had rooms across the country, video conferencing rooms and all the students Queen students went to rooms in various cities.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And met with professors by video conferencing.

Speaker 1:

Oh, very cool. Okay, and met with professors by video conferencing.

Speaker 2:

Oh, very cool, and we were talking about how that was kind of improvised because it was the first time we did something like that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so people didn't have to move to Kingston to get their MBA for the first time.

Speaker 2:

Right. So Bell was the connectivity. I was part of a communications e-learning team and Ron at the time was uh at queens as part of their business team. And now ron, tight, uh, is a big entry. Look him up. He's got a new book coming out, the purpose of purpose, and I I love one.

Speaker 1:

Okay, mention that so I thought that was very interesting, that whole way to get the nba. But more interesting is you were like Bell Canada worker by day, improv comedian at night, and that's just crazy. So what motivated you to do improv for the humor's sake and not for business back then?

Speaker 2:

I love that. I started doing improv in my early 20s when I was also a young professional woman, starting out in communications, and I went down to theater sports at Harborfront in Toronto. Theater sports was a comedy show where you watch people perform doing skits and sketches and basically it's kind of like if you saw Whose Line Is it Anywhere, or Saturday Night Live or Second City. It's a show. So it's a very comedy performance and I went and got hooked and took a class. It's a community. I never left the community and I was in a comedy group for 11 years called the Canadian Space Opera Company as well. We did a lot of fringe shows and performances. So yes, I had this hobby of improv while.

Speaker 1:

I was a business person.

Speaker 2:

And it really informed me beautifully in terms of communication skills.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that's what's, and I could be wrong, but I think that's what separates improv from the rest of the comedians. Like the rest of the comedians are just like these night dwellers, like they come out at night and they're all alone in their little apartments during the day, but improv it does seem to be like like SCTV seemed like a tight family, like whose line is it? Anyway, they all seem like they're a tight group and they all do stuff together and they seem like they are a really tight knit group.

Speaker 2:

It's true, because improv, you bond. You bond because you're co-creating together, on the spot, something completely new right, and what happened with me through the years is, uh, there's something called applied improvisation and that's what my book's about and that's that's what I now teach where you apply the tenets of improv, like active listening, yes, and conversations that we're going to get into in a minute, uh, and and different techniques, that makes great sketch groups also happen to make great teams okay yeah, so we're not.

Speaker 2:

We're not teaching people to be performers when, when we use applied improvisation, we're teaching people to be better communicators and open to creativity.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so I'm a little bit nervous, but let's do this, let's try and exercise and see if I I know nobody's good or bad at this right, it's nonjudgmental, but let's see how it goes.

Speaker 2:

Well, I love what you just said, because that's one of the things there's no mistakes, really, there's only opportunities. If we're not making mistakes, it's true, where's the growth? Every day we're making a ton of them and it's really more around maybe staying humble with that. So, when it comes to improv and what we're going to do, we're going to do an exercise where we don't know what we're going to say. Okay, we don't know what we're going to say. I'll start it, this first version. We're going to try out what the word no is like in an exercise. Okay, so I'm going to say a sentence very simple and you're going to start your next sentence, in response to me, with the word no, okay, okay, so I'll say Jack decided to go to the store.

Speaker 1:

No, he just wanted to stay home.

Speaker 2:

No, Jack took his dog on a long walk.

Speaker 1:

No, he didn't, because it was raining.

Speaker 2:

No, Jack decided to go on vacation and flew to Hawaii.

Speaker 1:

No, he couldn't, because it was COVID and the airports were shut down.

Speaker 2:

Right, okay, so no, like when we're using the word no in this type of a scenario. How did that feel to you?

Speaker 1:

I didn't like it Right.

Speaker 2:

Because what happens in a story like that? Nothing's happening, it's not going anywhere, right?

Speaker 1:

No, and it just. I'm not an antagonistic person, and it just felt like I was just being negative.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So one thing I always let people know is that the word no is really important when you want to shut things down.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

The word no is really important when you want boundaries for yourself, and it's really important. You know no means no. However, no is not a great word when you want to build teams and say, and when you want to interact, when you want to open up and encourage people to have confidence and speak up in meetings, when you want people to build trust and collaborate with each other, no can really shut things down in a negative way. So I always mention that. So let's try that story. This time we're going to use yes, but Okay, okay. So Jack decided to get in his car and go for a drive and you can say yes, but yes, but before he went he decided to take his dog with him.

Speaker 1:

Yes, but the dog wasn't eating properly, so he brought along some special food oh okay, yes, but he didn't want to give the food to the dog before the walk, just so he wouldn't be sick during the walk yes, but uh, he loaded everything in the car, including the dog, and decided to try anyway, and so I'll stop that there.

Speaker 2:

so how does the word but feel in that scenario? Okay, so you tricked me.

Speaker 1:

No, we're going to do that we have a third one coming Exactly, and so I thought we were going to do the no and then the yes, and so it was funny because I know the next one is yes and Right and I mistook yes but, and so as we were going through the yes but exercise, I was like this isn't any more fun than the no.

Speaker 2:

I love that. Why do?

Speaker 1:

we do. I thought this was going to be the good one and I'm like I think we're doing this wrong.

Speaker 2:

I'm improvising with you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it wasn't until the last. Yes, but I'm like wait a minute, this isn't yes and this is yes, but how did both feel? I didn't like it. Like I said, I was like no, what do you mean? What do you mean? Yes, but we had to bring food for Charlie. Well, I didn't know where to go with that, I couldn't build on it. I'm like, yes, but well, we had to get the food after. I couldn't build on that, I didn't like it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's true, thank, that's amazing. Yes, I threw yes, but in, because but is also a word that's just shuts things down in a negative way. You know, be aware. I encourage everyone who's listening to be aware when you say but, so I start to want it notice when you say but and how it feels and how people respond. Studies actually show that words like no and words like but can really have a negative effect on your business and personal relationships and, as we know, they both intermingle. Business is personal, so let's try this whole thing again. I'm going to start a different story with yes and Okay.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and that last one was so authentic because, like I said, I thought I thought yes, but was yes and I love it.

Speaker 2:

Cool, let's go. It's amazing, okay. So jack decided to go on a walk let's keep it going. Yes, and he brought his dog, charlie yes, and jack and charlie went to the nearby park.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and while they were there, they met two other dogs that Charlie got to play with.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and the dogs ran all around the dog park and they had a great time.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and Mike was single and one of the other dog owners was a single female. So now Mike has a date after this dog walk dog owners was a single female.

Speaker 2:

So now Mike has a date after this dog walk. Yes, and the girl and he took the dogs and they went to the coffee shop and they decided to hang out and try some coffee with their newfound friend dogs.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and in the end the dogs were the flower girl and ring bear for their wedding Nicely done, mike.

Speaker 2:

I love that. Nicely done, mike, nicely done. So how does yes and feel?

Speaker 1:

That was fun. I had so many ways to go with that story. I was like, when we're doing the yes, but, and Charlie needed to bring food I didn't know what to say to that needed to bring food, I didn't have any. I didn't know what to say to that. Yeah. But when you said and you know, and then they went to the dog park, I was like, oh what, like there's so many things that could have happened at the dog park, and so I had a lot of options.

Speaker 2:

It was good you did, it was amazing. It was amazing. And the other thing, so try. I encourage people to try, yes and Try, try it out and see what happens in your conversations with people and how there's this flow that starts to happen. Or you can try out this exercise with someone, because what happens when you're doing improv, mike, I'm sure you noticed you cannot be anywhere except in the present moment.

Speaker 1:

Right, yes, that's true you have to be listening.

Speaker 2:

You must listen because you don't know what's going to happen. Okay, you don't know what's going to happen. So a lot of times when people are telling a story, you might be thinking oh, when they finish, I get to tell my story, and that your ego comes up with the box of thoughts right, which is totally natural, normal, and you want that to happen.

Speaker 2:

We need our ego. I want to make it clear the ego is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. Otherwise we'd be walking around the streets doing all kinds to make it clear the ego is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. Otherwise we walking around the streets, you know, doing all kinds of havoc. So the ego keeps us in check, the ego keeps us safe. Ego we need the ego okay it's.

Speaker 2:

We're in a world where the egos run amok a little bit, so what we want to do is disrupt a little bit with something new, to create space and presence. And this creates a bonding when you do this with your teammates or anyone, because suddenly you're in the moment co-creating something together.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so that brings me to my next question. So I've seen SCTV and I've seen you know whose line is it and I could see how improv could be super funny. It is super funny, right, yeah, with Colin Mochrie and that crew, but how does it apply to business? I don't see the link there.

Speaker 2:

I love that you're asking that question. Okay, so back to applied improvisation. So let's say I'm working with a team of it could be 20 or 200 people. Let's say I have 20 people and everyone. If I have a small group, everyone might be in a circle standing.

Speaker 2:

If I have a small group everyone might be in a circle standing and there'd be a facilitator. I'm the facilitator in this scenario and I would encourage people to do simple exercises. So we're not saying, here, we're going to create scenes and you're going to be a performer. We would do an exercise like the one we just did. After some warm-ups and so forth, we would get to an exercise like no, yes and yes, and, and it's all about doing a simple story where people can experience the experiential nature of improv. And then it's all about the debrief afterward where we how did that feel?

Speaker 2:

How can that help you now communicate more effectively with your teammates and open up to better listening skills? By the way, I don't mind saying that listening skills is considered the number one area that leaders need to work on. Okay, listening to their teammate, instead of coming in and saying, well, we're going to do everything my way and no, we're not listening to your ideas. And going to do everything my way and no, we're not listening to your ideas. And you know they give kind of a lip service to yeah, that's a good idea, no, we've always done it this way or whatever, right.

Speaker 2:

So yes, and is an effective communication tool to help people listen, give and receive. So, for example, the yes means I'm listening, I'm receiving, I'm accepting, acknowledging and hearing you, and the end is I'm speaking up, building on what you're saying, connecting, inspiring. So the bottom line is that, through this giving and receiving, going back and forth, you might arrive at something new, and I'm thinking about the polarization of the world when I say that, like, instead of I'm right, you're wrong, instead of my way or the highway it's, I'm going to suspend judgment. And, by the way, it's really important to know it doesn't mean you have to agree. So, for example, maybe you and I have very different ideas about something. However, we're going to, yes, end this, we're going to agree to suspend judgment and listen and hear one another and give respect, even if we don't agree. How powerful is that Right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I've got a really good example of listening skills. So I was on, I was being interviewed on another podcast, yes, and we had a set of questions prior going in. But when I started the podcast before we went on air, I'm like, and we had a set of questions prior going in, but when I started the podcast before we went on air, I'm like I like to have a kind of conversational, you know, and go back and forth oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's definitely how I do it. So we're talking about my thing empathic marketing and so I said something like oh, but there's that people can do to really capture their audience's attention. And she responded with the yeah, yeah, yeah, got it, got it. And I was like you got what? Like I said, I lobbed one to you Like there's one thing people can do to capture your audience's attention. She's like yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it. Like, no, because I didn't tell you what it was.

Speaker 1:

I want to know what it was. You weren't listening. Like I wanted to have a conversation with her and so I left it to her for her to say oh, what is that? One thing, right. But she didn't say that because the whole time I was talking she was looking at her notes, she was in her head, she wasn't hearing me at all. She's like oh, he's done talking.

Speaker 2:

Next question right, right, yes, yeah, like I've never even listened to that podcast because I just feel it was so terrible well, you know, that's a really good example of someone not really focused on what they're doing, and it happens all the time, right? One of the things I like about you the work you're doing too mike with marketing and so forth is, first of all, empathetic marketing. I love this whole idea of empathy and I'm really curious about that because empathy is a big improvisation tool with you if you're listening, actively listening. And I'm curious because I'm going to talk about marketing and sales for a sec. Tell me a little. I am curious. I want to just know for a minute about the marketing and the empathy piece how that works together for you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's, it's. Empathy just means understanding, and so you just need to understand your audience and you need to communicate with them, yes, and like in the way they want to be communicated to Right. You can't just like that woman who interviewed me. She told me what she wanted to say.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

Right, she wasn't, I wasn't involved in that conversation at all, right. And so when you're trying to sell this to somebody, especially now and I'm, I'm, I'm, I love artificial intelligence, use it. I love artificial intelligence, use it every day. I'm not anti-AI, but as we get more towards AI and everything's roboticized, more we're losing that personal touch. It's going to be greater and greater, and I think there's going to be a yearning for that authenticity and human connection, and that's where the empathy comes in, and so you need to have empathy in marketing if you want your business to survive forward.

Speaker 2:

Right, otherwise it feels like selling. It feels like right, it's not. You're not really listening to your clients. What they need, what they want where they're at, what their values are, yeah you just that. I love that, uh, very much. I don't mind saying, when you mention ai, we call ourselves the other ai, applied improvisation. Oh right, yeah, we call ourselves the Other AI, which is the human connection part.

Speaker 2:

Oh, cool yeah so I love that and you know I was thinking about your book because I really love that focus. And I, in my career I mentioned, I've been doing the business world and improv all the way along. I've been in marketing and I've been in sales.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And so one of the things, the areas I like to use improv for is because, as you know so well, marketing and salespeople have different brains at work right, and different goals, motives. Marketing is building messaging in a brand, it's slower's thoughtful right, and sales is how fast can we make this happen? We have revenue targets now, now. Now, right, yeah, right.

Speaker 1:

I'm sure you ran into that yourself well, I am, I am, I think I'm a brilliant marketer. Yes, in all modesty, but I am the world's worst person at sales, because I do not want to ask you for anything. Like I just I don't want you to. I don't want to ask you for anything, but what I want is for you to ask of me. Right, it's like oh, empathic marketing. That sounds to trace. How, how can, how could, how could you work with us to help us increase our sales? I want you to ask that question. I don't want to say, hey, tracy, like would you be willing to hire me to work with your team? Like I can't ask you that. I can't sell you on that. I need to get you enticed and interested so that you're like oh, mike, I read your book and this is brilliant. You can really help our team. How can we hire you? Like that's, that's how I get the jobs. I can't ask to be hired.

Speaker 2:

Well, I love you know what I love that, and the reason I love that is because I'm a natural marketer and I'm like you. That's how I started my career, so I really relate to marketing people and market. I was in marketing communications for years and then I had a little bit of a switch up. I ended up actually doing business to business, cold calling. I never in my I never would have imagined that I would be doing that. However, I did.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And what I learned through the experience of being in marketing and then also in sales is you're using different. There's different brains, different accessing different parts of your brains to do different jobs, different tasks, and I found that I was really good at B2B calling, appointment setting because of my marketing background and I wasn't salesy.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

I was kind of like authentic and interested in empathy and hearing. I used a lot of active listening and that's when I realized I was actually improvising, I was using my improv background. So now the reason I mentioned that is if you're working in a company, there's a few improv and sales go together really well because you teach people to listen, like a marketer would, if you will listen, listen to what the the person on the other side of the phone saying don't just come in and do your, your spiel, don't just come in and do some kind of speech so just to interject really quickly, because that's what I hate is the cold calls where I say hello, like hi, this is so and so, from vacations, vacations, and we have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I quite often put the phone down and 10 minutes later they don't know I'm not there anymore.

Speaker 1:

I'm just like I don't care, I'm not going to buy from them and I hope if I waste their time then they won't call me back. But they'll talk for 10 minutes without knowing if I'm there. And I'm assuming you did not do that when you did B2B cold calling.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely not. In fact, the first thing I wanted to do was qualify and, by the way, business to business is a little different than calling, of course. Calling someone at their home, because you're calling a business is calling another business, which is a little more acceptable, I'd say, than when you call people at their home, is tricky these days because there's so much you know you don't know who's calling you anymore at home. So, if you know, you don't know who's calling you anymore. So if you're calling someone at their business, you might qualify right off the bat with a question like hi, are you the person in charge of xyz? Do you work with xyz? You want to qualify right, get and figure out very quickly.

Speaker 2:

Oh, if you can help each other and that's how you look at it with authentic marketing and sales. You look right back to what you said, mike I, because I really do believe that empathy is I hear you, it's yes and it's yes, and I'm listening, I hear you, I want to learn about you, and then you have a back and forth and an outcome. So that's how I believe marketing and sales can meet and understand one another more effectively. Of course, we're just touching the surface of that, however, through improv and yes, and, and you know, the whole act of listening, building, empathy, perspective taking and of course it's thinking on your feet skills.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I'm sure you've had a lot of these, but could you give me an example of like one aha moment during a corporate training event where you really connect with the audience and made some sort of difference?

Speaker 2:

Well, I can think of so many. One that I love is I was working with 30 salespeople Interestingly, they were retail salespeople and we were doing a two day event that included roleplaying, all kinds of different improv exercises to help people kind of stretch their comfort zone, get into storytelling. So at the beginning of day one I went in and did kind of sometimes I do something about nonverbal communications, like spread your arms, try different eye contact scenarios, try different postures, and I did one where spread your arms and say I'm grateful, because it actually changes the brain and changes how you feel in the moment. It can really create a sense of gratitude. Gratitude's great and we can access that gratitude. Just spread your arms for 20 seconds and say I'm grateful. And the next day, after the full day of training, I came back the next day and as I walked in, the whole circle was there and they all spread their arms and said I'm grateful.

Speaker 2:

All the way it was really moving because, they had already been through, you know, a couple of days of training and here they were ready to be grateful for empathy and thinking on your feet, skills and yes, and so it was beautiful.

Speaker 1:

That is cool. How does improv help individual leaders or team members show up as a better communicator?

Speaker 2:

Right? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is this whole when you're a leader, you might believe that you have to have all the answers, or you might believe that you're in charge of everything and that you need to have all the ideas. I'm going to focus on divergent and convergent thinking for a second, as it relates to improv One thing you can do as a leader, because really people need and want to be, and deserve to be heard. So if you're kind of running the show with the other leaders and you're not really listening to your team which, by the way, is a common challenge what you might want to start to do is have regular sessions where you agree that during this session, we're going to apply the divergent thinking of improv. So what that would mean is that we're going to apply the divergent thinking of improv. So what that would mean is that we're going to have a brainstorming session.

Speaker 2:

All ideas are good ideas, everyone can be heard, everyone can speak up. There is no bad idea here, because you want to get people used to being heard in a way where they're not going to feel like, oh, if I say something wrong, my idea is going to come back at me later, I'm going to be shut down. This happens a lot, right.

Speaker 1:

I'm actually working in a toxic team right now and I have I've shut down, like I'm just because the leader doesn't ever give any positive feedback ever. This is perfect, right and so Example, right and so example. And like so he hasn't. He hasn't said anything bad about. He doesn't usually say anything bad, but he just doesn't acknowledge it or or or it's sort of a backhanded negative comment and like I say I'm a giver, I want to help, and after just, I don't want to be like flowers sent to my door but just like, oh, thanks, that's a really good idea. I'm like even this is this, might be even sort of a yes, and it's like yes, that is a good idea. Well, this is kind of a bot because, because it does have to be close, like if my idea isn't something he wants to implement, like yes, but is better than what what I'm getting right now.

Speaker 2:

Right, right.

Speaker 1:

Well, right.

Speaker 2:

Well, that's. I'm so glad you said that and it's happened to me many times in my career and many people are experiencing that right now that I talk to, and that's why it's so great. And what I mentioned about divergent thinking is all ideas are good ideas. During that session, you're going to be heard and the reason is your idea might very well, your idea might trigger a different idea.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So that's why all ideas are good ideas and, by the way, when you listen to people, you'll be amazed at what can come forth right yeah, then later yeah, please, yeah I think if I, if I know when I say something I'm going to get a positive affirmation after it, then I'm much more likely to say something right, whereas, yeah, if I'm pretty confident that whatever I say is going to have a negative connotation, then I'm going to hold back.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, I can see how YesSan would just be super valuable in that sort of team dynamic for people sharing ideas and thanks, I had a little cough there, well, and then the next day or a few days later, you can have a session and apply convergent thinking, where you narrow it down to two or three ideas. And we're going to run with this many times people go right to the convergent thinking and they've missed all kinds of gold that could have been discussed right and then they haven't acknowledged, as you mentioned, they haven't heard and acknowledged someone.

Speaker 2:

Every idea is a good idea. Instead of oh, but you could just say, yeah, that's a great idea, that could you know, that could really be in a certain scenario, and then, if you're not going to go with that idea, explain maybe why why not, instead of shutting people down, right?

Speaker 1:

yeah, because I'm just so in love with marketing like everything I, everything I see and everything. I interpret everything as some sort of marketing sort of thing. And have you ever watched the tv show house?

Speaker 1:

you know yeah sure yeah yeah, and so house is, you know this, egotistical, narcissistic. You know, physician, he's really bright, but thenistic. You know, physician, he's really bright, but then there's Wilson and Wilson's the cancer doctor and they have this you know bizarre friendship. But anyway, wilson, house credits Wilson. When Wilson talks to his patient and says Tracy, you have terminal cancer and you're going to die, tracy quite often says thank you. And House doesn't understand how that happens. Wilson, you just told Tracy she's going to die, there's no treatment, there's nothing we can do, you're going to die, but Tracy still says thank you. And how does that happen?

Speaker 2:

I'm curious Tell me, how does that happen?

Speaker 1:

Well, that's just because Wilson took the time to really understand Tracy, so that wasn't the first interaction they had, they've gone through a process together and he's been with her all the way and it's been like a yes and situation, right where they're working together and then, when it's time for the truth to be told, you know, Tracy's just thankful. That said, well, thank you for being honest, she's thankful. She's not thankful that she's dying. She's thankful for the honesty and that Wilson had the compassion to share it with her in the way that he did.

Speaker 2:

Right. So this is about authentic communication too, Right yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right, right. Yeah, this is about authentic communication too.

Speaker 1:

Right yeah, right, right yeah. Because nobody ever thanks House and House is like a way better doctor than Wilson is, like all of Wilson's patients die because he's a cancer doctor, right, and because of the TV show. Like 80% of these ridiculous cases House solves and saves their lives but none of them say thank you. Because House never had the empathy with the patient right. It was just a transactional sort of process where you know thank you wasn't deserved. I paid the bill, you saved my life. That was the transaction that happens.

Speaker 2:

Just like a leader who isn't communicating, listening. Building a relationship Right. Yeah, it's the same scenario. I love that. Building a relationship Right. Yeah, it's the same scenario, I love that. That's definitely a good example of something that comes into our living room every day too, through a show Right, sometimes there's some really good leadership learnings. I wish more leaders watched that and got the….

Speaker 1:

Well, it's just like I say everything and he bought the. Well, it's just like. It's like everything. So, yeah, I've recently met the hostage negotiator from Scotland Yard. Yes, when I met him and you've listened to that podcast, I love that yeah, but when I met him, he was the one who told me that you and I do the same things.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

Because it's just the psychology of compliance, like, as a marketer, I want you to buy my thing and as a hostage negotiator, I want you to release the hostage. But the psychology we use is the same sort of thing. So yeah, so let's end with this totally improvised question.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

How would a hostage negotiator use yes, and to get the hostages released?

Speaker 2:

Well, it's interesting you should mention that, because I do study the work of Chris Voss, who talks about using no, and in his case, his no is a yes, and so, just to complicate things more, it's just a different framework. It's just a different framework. It's just a different framework. So I think in the case of chris voss, for example, uh, and he's got a great book, um, the title escapes me right now. I'm not sure if you know the title of chris's book.

Speaker 1:

It's uh he has tactical empathy.

Speaker 2:

That's one of his things so the point of the point is with a guy who's a hostage guy, yeah, he doesn't want to be told what to do. This is a real note.

Speaker 2:

This is a real shutdown guy right so the idea that chris has is if that's been effective is don't uh, don't try to get that person to a yes. Give them the no so that they can then figure out for themselves that they need to get to a yes. So tell them no, I don't need you know you wouldn't want to do that, or whatever, and then the guy will go well, maybe I do, because they're very contrarian. It's almost a contrarian situation right.

Speaker 2:

Where I think yes and yes, and and a little different, because it's it's. It's a communication tool to encourage people to listen and give and receive and in Chris Voss's scenario that giving and receiving is really shut down in a lives are at stake, right, and so it's. It's kind of like we know we, we know we don't agree with them, but we don't want to let them. But we don't want to let. In this case there is a but. So I think in in Chris's case he's using no to get to yes. Okay, and he says that if you keep reading his book, he says, eventually you'll get to a yes through this experience of the no. So it's a different framework and I guess yes and communication is more around. Even if we don't agree, suspend judgment, give and receive, and it's improv exercises. You're going to be laughing when you do improv. It's playful, right. You're going to be laughing when you're in a hostage situation. It's playful.

Speaker 2:

You're going to be laughing when you're in a hostage situation. It's not really that playful.

Speaker 1:

No.

Speaker 2:

It's kind of like the difference between incorporating games and play in the schoolyard, or a situation where the bullies have taken over, if you will. So I would apply different frameworks in different scenarios. I like. Chris, I like the hostage.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I think it's just kind of like you know in life there might be 10 frameworks on the go in your business for different things and I would say YesN is a great, playful, laughter bonding, team-oriented framework. Say yes ends a great, playful, laughter bonding, team oriented framework and no to get to yes could work in.

Speaker 1:

it'd be nice to have access to more than one framework right that's how I see that okay yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, as a paramount paramedic, I never had any hostage negotiations, but I had something very similar. I had two, uh, patients who like, had the, had the knife in their hand and they wanted to kill themselves. So I couldn't, I couldn't approach, so their hostage was themselves. Right, they're like coming closer and I'm gonna, I'll cut my wrist right, and so, yeah, it was the same sort of dialogue. I had to convince them to release themselves to my care in a way.

Speaker 2:

Right, yeah, you're probably not going to start laughing no, no, no, no no. In that scenario, chris's book is Never Split the Difference and I read the whole thing and I really like it.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And I think that, yeah, it depends on what your situation. It's good to have access right to more than one way of doing things.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think so because I'm so literal. I think one of the problems I was having with yes and is I was thinking that that's how you communicate, but it's more of a tool to help you to listen better. Yeah, yeah. So, as an example, if my wife and I went to yes and improv together, we would have fun in that, but then we would communicate better afterwards because I would listen to her more, even though I wouldn't necessarily follow up. Everything she said was with yes and Is that correct, correct.

Speaker 2:

Yes, that's right.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

That's right. So I don't say yes and constantly throughout the day, however, I still am yes and doing, and I will say that improv, through the many years I've been doing it, has made me a broader, open person, willing to listen to all kinds of ideas and perspectives, and also I can apply the divergent I'm listening, I'm hearing you and then go back and narrow down those ideas. So those are just some of the tools and it really helps you access creativity in a different way. When you yes and and open up, instead, the human, humans can be um, we're, we're in the fight and flight. Right, we've got, we've got, we're wired a certain way.

Speaker 2:

our brains want to keep us safe our brains want to shut things down and help us to stay more fixed. So practicing improv, this playful, open way, helps us get open to creativity, stay open to each other and the yes and is a framework of communication skills and creativity. And I would say overall, what happens when you apply improv to your life is you won't have to, you won't be a hostage right you're not going to be that kind of person, right?

Speaker 2:

yeah, you're going to be having a different life. You're going to be having a more a life of where you're curious more about one another, the way you want to engage and listen.

Speaker 1:

Okay, very cool. So if people wanted to I don't know get a copy of your book bringing you in to speak to their team. How do people reach you, find you, what do they do?

Speaker 2:

I have my book right here. Check that out on Amazon, I guess the yes and Business Evolution. Thank you for that, Mike. And if you want to get in touch, my website is yesunlimitedca. And yeah, we're working internationally. There's a course in the works based on the book. Right now, working with leaders and teams I'm very excited about and yeah, yes and.

Speaker 1:

I'll put the com and ca Amazon links in the show notes and also a link to your website.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, mike, and your book's amazing too, so empathetic marketing, empathic marketing. See Improvisation Empathic.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, I couldn't say improvisation, still can't say it, still can't say it.

Speaker 2:

And when it comes to improv, it's good to let go and fail. Feel the failure, feel the fear, embrace it, do it anyway.

Speaker 1:

Exactly Well. Thanks so much, tracy. I'm glad I bumped into you on LinkedIn. It was so great to have you here and I look forward to launching this podcast into the podcast world.

Speaker 2:

I'm so happy we got to talk and I love how we went in so many different directions and really yes-ended that, so thank you All right.

Speaker 1:

Thanks, Tracy. See you next time.

Speaker 2:

All right, thanks, mike.

Speaker 1:

And that is a wrap for this episode of Because Business Is Personal. Thanks for joining us and don't forget to take advantage of my two special offers. First, you can get a free copy of my bestselling book Empathic Marketing. You just pay for the shipping. Or you get a 50% discount on my gap analysis session with the coupon code podcast. Just head over to wwwbecausebusinessispersonalcom or check the show notes for details. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please don't forget to follow, subscribe, leave a review and share the podcast with others who might benefit. Your support means the world to us, so stay tuned for our next episode, where we'll continue to delve into the intersection of empathy and marketing strategy. Remember, because business is indeed personal, every connection counts. Until next time. See you then.